27 January 2012

Rebirth is Neither Plausible nor Salient.


My Great-great Grandmother (96)
with my Father (6 months)
ca. 1936
I'VE NOW WRITTEN a number of Raves on the subject of afterlife beliefs. I've looked at the notion from a variety of perspectives: phenomenological, historical, and taxonomic. Along the way I have been drawn to a particular conclusion which is this:
The idea of anything surviving the death of the body, and in particular the death of the brain, seems so incredibly unlikely that I no longer find any afterlife theory plausible.
I no longer find the idea of rebirth plausible, mainly because I don't believe in the metaphysics which underlie the idea. Following David Hume and his criteria for judging testimony, I find the falsehood of rebirth considerably less miraculous than the truth of it. More crucially I no longer see rebirth as salient or relevant in my approach to the Dharma. After a few introductory remarks I'll deal with plausibility first, and then salience. This Rave is rather longer than usual and I hope readers will bear with me. The argument is not difficult to follow, but it's best seen in a broad context.

On face value, in rejecting rebirth, I am adopting an annihilationist view (ucchedadiṭṭhi) which I imagine will please my so-called secular Buddhist readers and appal my more traditionalist readers. Coming out as an annihilationist (ucchedavādika) might be seen as rather contrary for someone who claims to be a religious Buddhist. After all Buddhism quite distinctly positions itself as a middle-way between eternalism and nihilism. However I think I can justify my position with reference to Buddhist doctrine, and show that not believing in rebirth is not necessarily heterodox, even if it goes against the received tradition! In doing so I will invoke some ideas that have become my guiding lights in this blog. Chief amongst these is the "hermeneutic of experience" the idea that we should always interpret Buddhist doctrines as referring to experience and never to the question of what exists. I define "experience" quite generally as that which arises on contact between sense object and sense faculty in the presence of sense consciousness. A key text is the Kaccānagotta Sutta which denies the applicability of 'it exists' (atthi) and 'it does not exist' (n'atthi) when discussing the world [of experience] (loka).


Plausibility

When I criticised the Abhidharma recently I said that the Abhidharmikas shifted their attention away from experience as the sphere of interest, towards existence and problems like trying to determine what exists (in other words they ignored the Kaccānagotta Sutta). A related change was the move to see paṭicca-samuppāda as a Theory of Everything: i.e. a single, simple explanation for every 'thing' and/or 'phenomena' in the universe. In an unpublished essay I have argued at some length that paṭicca-samuppāda was not intended to explain everything, and that it's proper domain is precisely the world of experience where ontological thinking is not relevant. [1] Experiences arise and pass away without anything substantial coming into being and nothing going out of being. It follows from this that the Middle Way itself properly applies only in this same domain.

However before the Canon was closed paṭicca-samuppāda was applied to rebirth. Rebirth, or some variation on it, was and is the most common afterlife belief in India. Some form of rebirth eschatology can be seen as far back as the later strata of the Ṛgveda [2]. I've outlined these afterlife views in my taxonomy.

In order to have any kind of rebirth something of my current psycho-physical organism must survive the death of my body. Rebirth is generally predicated upon the idea that one can recall past lives, or that at the very least one inherits habitual tendencies from a previous being. Buddhists typically reject the idea that the reborn being is either identical with, or entirely different from, the being who has previously died. But at the very least memories must be preserved in some medium for recall, and every scrap of evidence we have ties human memory to our living brain. Habitual tendencies are habits of thought and emotion both of which require a living brain, and a living body. Can an experience even be called an emotion without a body in which to experience it? In which case even the Buddhist theory of rebirth posits some form of dualism: a part of us survives death to convey our memories and habits across multiple life-times. But this aspect of us cannot be the mind which is so closely tied to the living body, and it cannot be the body since it unequivocally ceases at death (and decays back into its constituent elements. So what is it? If we are not to answer that it is a soul (of some description), then how do we answer? I don't think there is a satisfactory answer to this question. Some of this material was covered in Rebirth and the Scientific Method where I outline the kind of evidence that would cause me to change my mind on this.

By the way I also believe the question of whether the Buddha believed in rebirth to be unanswerable. Buddhist texts are almost universally acquainted with some form of rebirth. It is true that there are some minor ambiguities and contradictions, but the texts reflect the views of early Buddhists, not the views of the Buddha, and there's no reason to expect them to agree on everything. There is no objective way to extract the Buddha's actual views from the early Buddhist texts. So it is facile to insist that the Buddha either did or did not believe in any particular idea.

We also need to consider the Theory of Mind. This is the special characteristic of self-consciousness that enables us to see other beings as self-aware individuals like ourselves, i.e. to develop a theory about other minds. Theory of Mind underlies our ability to empathise. It also allows us to perceive and meet the needs of other beings, even at the expense of our own needs at times (altruism). It is true that other primates have this ability to some extent, but humans have developed it to a far higher degree. It is Theory of Mind that informs the Golden Rule about how to treat other beings. We know what is is like to suffer, and so we should not inflict suffering on others (see also None Dearer than Myself). Now our Theory of Mind errs on the side of caution in most people. The possibility that our dog or cat is self-aware in the same way that we are is moot, but we may also attribute self-awareness to trees, to mountains, and to physical processes like storms. We have a tendency to see self-awareness where it is clearly not present. This allows us, even encourages us, to imagine the consciousness of the dead person continuing without their body!

Neuro-anatomical investigation shows us that mental activity is inseparable from brain activity. Even in the case where mental activity does seem disembodied—e.g. the out-of-body experience (OBE)—scientists have shown that electrical stimulation of the angular gyrus, on the tempero-parietal junction, will create this precise effect. We now have plausible explanations for how the sense of self may be disrupted in such a way as the ego is perceived to be connected to the felt sense of the body, but disconnected from visual sense, all the while remaining tightly correlated with brain activity. Thomas Metzinger, however, has observed that having had an OBE the overwhelming temptation is to conclude that consciousness is not tied to the body: i.e. to believe in a strong form of mind/body dualism. I would add that even those who haven't had the experience personally are tempted by the testimony of those who have. The conclusions of neuroscientists, however, are profoundly non-dualistic: there is no separation between brain function and consciousness, they are manifestations of the same process.

Now Buddhists will be tempted to trot out the old charge of materialism, or arguments against epiphenomenalism at this point. However I am not making an ideological argument; I'm not arguing for strict materialism or epiphenomenalism (and anyway: I'm not a materialist). I am only arguing that the evidence shows us that mental activity and brain activity are so tightly correlated as to be inseparable: i.e. that mental activity without brain activity, while not inconceivable, has not yet been observed, and seems unlikely ever to be observed. The evidence is certainly not complete, but each observation reinforces the others and points in the same direction. What's more the testimony that points towards dualism is shown to be false, or biased. I think we've reached the point where this conclusion is inescapable.

It will be useful to review why afterlife beliefs are so potent (from my rave The Abyss of Death). All organisms are characterised by, amongst other things, an over-riding imperative to survive (apparently Schopenhauer made this observation, but I take my cue from Thomas Metzinger). Even the single-celled amoeba acts for its own continued survival. Even plants with no nervous system compete with neighbours and fight to dominate their space, and to repel invaders and pathogens. Life strives to continue. However while life itself continues, individual living organisms all eventually die. Self-awareness has given us the certain knowledge of our own inevitable death. Thus, in the mind of a self-aware living being, an irresistible force (survival) meets an immovable object (death). The result is cognitive dissonance so strong that we simply deny death - in most cases the imperative over-rides the facts.

When reasoning we use emotion to assign value to facts. Antonio Damasio describes a patient with damage to the emotion centres in the pre-frontal lobe, but whose intellect is otherwise intact. Asked to make a decision they cannot do so because they cannot assign value to facts, they get caught up in an endless exploration of the available facts without ever coming to a conclusion. [3] The strength of emotion around death makes us weigh facts in a biased way: for instance we see the corpse of a loved one, but cannot accept that they have simply ceased to be, so we imagine that their consciousness (or their soul) lives on in some disembodied state.

When we combine all of these observations we can begin to see the dynamic that is at work:
  • We believe a priori that self-awareness is not tied to the body,
  • so the idea that 'something' survives death and continues to 'live' seems plausible,
  • emotional weighting of facts makes this seem probable, and the finality of death improbable,
  • and since we don't want to believe in death, post-mortem survival seems preferable.
  • We make the leap from preferable to actually true, and it feels satisfying because we have resolved the dissonance and been consistent with our other beliefs.
The problem is that the plausibility of post-mortem survival is undermined by rigorous observations of life and living organisms and how they function. It becomes clear that the afterlife is simply a metaphysical narrative with no real-world correlates - there is no other reason to believe it other than it feels right, but it only feels right because of pre-existing biases and unbearable tensions. Whatever contradictory facts are presented, they are not assigned much emotional weight, so post-mortem survival still seems preferable however irrational. Even when it is acknowledged to be irrational.

Now the scientist is often a materialist, though not in the simplistic sense of the 18th or 19th century Natural Philosopher. Studying science makes materialism compelling because it actually explains a huge amount, and the method has produced sustained progress in knowledge for 200 years now. I say sustained, but scientific progress is a punctuated equilibrium. A lot of the time we're just collecting data, filling gaps, and concerned with details. But from time to time observations are made that force a shift in the way we see the world. We probably all know about these because the most famous scientists are associated with paradigm shifts: e.g. Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Marie Currie, Albert Einstein, and Crick, Watson & Franklin. All of these people were studying the world with the explicit notion that stuff really exists independent of our minds. In the traditional Buddhist analysis they are therefore eternalists. However the same scientists usually conclude that there is no afterlife and this is traditionally a nihilist view. Eternalism and nihilism are mutually contradictory positions. A logical contradiction like this is a sign that the terms of the discussion are flawed and we need to take a step back. And this brings us on to the issue of salience.


Salience

In my critique of the so-called Two Truths I pointed out that the only reason we needed to introduce the idea of two truths was because Buddhists began to apply paṭicca-samuppāda outside its natural domain. What I argue here is that something similar has taken place with the notion of life after death. To be explicit I am saying that the idea of rebirth is outside the natural domain of paṭicca-samuppāda. This is big claim given the history of the Buddhist tradition, but the essays I've been writing in the last couple of years have built up a case for it. My position is that paṭicca-samuppāda only really applies to the arising and passing away of experiences, especially in our unawakened state to the arising and passing away of dukkha (disappointment). This is in fact explicit in a number of texts, but specifically the Vajirā Sutta (SN 5:10; S i.136) which I have written about.

Being born is certainly an experience—though one that none of us have any memory of it precisely because at birth our brains are not fully developed. This is always the case because our head must get through the pelvis of our mother and that means leaving the womb with an underdeveloped brain. For most people our earliest memories (of this life) date from around age 3 or 4. This is also, perhaps not entirely coincidentally, about the time that Theory of Mind develops and allows us to see ourselves as an individual amongst other individuals.

The idea that we are reborn after death with memories of former lives (potentially) at our disposal, and inherited habits of mind and body, is not an experience. Rebirth is a interpretation based on anecdote which tries to explain why things happen the way they do. It's common enough to believe that beings come back after death, but certainly far from universal or obvious. Repeated death and rebirth is simply the predominant afterlife theory of India, though it is also found, for example, in African, indigenous American, and ancient Greeks socities. [4] In Christian or Islamic societies, by contrast, they subscribe to a different afterlife theory. So far as I can tell there is no objective criteria to decide between these views: we tend to just believe whatever people around us believe. Or we believe what feels right and I have already pointed out the potentially over whelming bias as far as the afterlife is concerned.

On the other hand ghosts and disembodied spirits are very much a part of the landscape in Christian countries. Friends of mine live in a "haunted" house and many people have experienced a close encounter with a "ghost" there. Most of these hauntings were actually classic sleep paralysis experiences, which highlights the distinction between an experience and how we explain and/or interpret it. Someone experiencing sleep paralysis has without doubt had a freakish and disturbing experience, but they have not experienced a disembodied conscious agent.

When Buddhists began to apply paṭicca-samuppāda to everything they did not leave out rebirth. However, like other forays outside the narrow application of paṭicca-samuppāda to experience, it caused contradictions and paradoxes: such as eternalists with nihilistic afterlife beliefs. These complications were generally accepted, though not without some juggling and competing interpretations, because Buddhists wanted (desperately) to see their most important idea as explaining everything. They still do. Speculating why this is so would take me too far from my topic, but perhaps I'll come back to it in another rave.

There is one more consideration here. Rebirth is intimately linked to the Buddhist doctrine of karma. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago (Son of the Śākyas) that the idea of being judged on the basis of your actions is one that might have come into Buddhism (and Hinduism) from Zoroastrianism. All large scale cultures seem to have a metaphysical overseer. In most cultures it comes in the form of a god who monitors your behaviour. Why do we need monitoring? In ancestral small scale societies we all knew what everyone was doing because we spent all of our time together. Privacy did not really exist. But as we became civilised and started living in larger scale communities it became impossible to keep everyone under surveillance to make sure they were keeping to the rules. Society is predicated on the idea that most people follow the rules most of the time, and if we catch someone breaking the rules we punish them somehow. One of the harshest non-fatal punishments is shunning which was practised in the early Buddhist Saṅgha for some offences (it still is). So gods like Indo-Iranian Mitra/Mithra, developed to keep a celestial eye on everyone and keep order. In non-Vedic India however the function was not divine, and not anthropomorphised, but became an impersonal built-in property of the universe, i.e. karma. However the function of karma is no different to the function carried out by judicial gods (e.g. Mitra or Zeus), or the oversight function of a mono-gods (e.g. Jehovah), and that karma is still a supernatural agency. Karma was invented to make sure that private actions have public consequences, though the astute reader will notice that the consequences are mostly private—that is divorced from the society in which the action was done—as well, since they are put-off till a future life.

Michel Foucault understood this surveillance function very well, and it forms one of the main themes of his work. In the West responsibility for oversight has passed from God and his priests, onto doctors (priests of medicine), and to the government via police and CCTV cameras. Though interestingly individuals with cell-phone video cameras are keeping tabs on us now as well! The oversight function of our society is being decentralised via technology! (Here is a fantastic example on YouTube, with commentary here) Rebirth and karma work together: karma affects the quality of our post-mortem destination (hence heaven and hell) and rebirth means that death is no escape from consequences. Interestingly the inescapability of consequences doesn't survive later developments in Buddhist doctrine and there-in lies a story!

Coming back to the main point: my rejection of an afterlife is not anihilisationist when considered within the hermeneutic of experience. I do not claim that dukkha (aka the five khandha; aka experience) does not arise and pass away; in fact like the Vajira Sutta I claim that only dukkha arises and passes away. Alongside this I argue that any afterlife belief is actually eternalistic, and problematically dualistic. Rejecting all of forms of afterlife—as talking in the wrong way and/or about the wrong thing—is the only way to keep to the middle. Hence rebirth is no longer salient, no longer relevant when considering how to live.


Conclusion

These arguments are not mere sophistry, or at least not only sophistry. If Buddhists do not accommodate the observations of scientists we will inevitably find Buddhism being dismissed along with other religions (and rightly so). Buddhist cosmology, eschatology and ontology is not based in fact or "reality", but in myth and superstition. Our soteriology is not much better. As inspiring as some of the myths are, we need not allow Buddhism to be sidelined as mere superstition, or to revert to anti-intellectual fundamentalism. If we accept the hermeneutic of experience, then so far as I can see Buddhists can happily co-exist with the mainstream of science and make a valuable contribution through introducing our awareness enhancing, anxiety and conflict reducing practices to people everywhere.

Some will see the death of Buddhism in my suggestions. By contrast I see a reinvigoration on a scale not seen since the 7th century Tantric synthesis in India where the collapse of civil society drove the evolution of an entirely new approach to religion that continues to thrive in India, Tibet and Japan. The synthesis of Buddhism with scientific rationalism is perhaps the most exciting cultural development the world has ever seen. As I envisage this synthesis the emphasis will be on understanding and working with experience; and belief in metaphysical processes or entities will not be required or encouraged, though, of course, people will continue to have extraordinary experiences.


~~oOo~~

Notes
  1. Jayarava. 'Is Paṭicca-samuppāda a Theory of Everything?' July 2011. Unpublished.
  2. Jurewicz. Joanna. 2006. 'The Ṛgveda, ‘small scale’ societies and rebirth eschatology.' [A revised version of her conference paper from the 14th World Sanskrit Conference, July 2006] Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies.
  3. Damasio, Antonio. 2006. Decartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain. (Rev. Ed.) Vintage Books, p.192ff.
  4. Obeyesekere, Gananath. 2002. Imagining Karma: Ethical Transformation in Amerindian, Buddhist, and Greek Rebirth. University of California Press.

In this post I also refer directly to these previous raves (and indirectly to a few others) in chronological order:
I point this out to show that I've been giving it some serious thought over some years, and that most of the points I make here are explored in greater depth elsewhere in my oeuvre.

Thanks for Sabio Lentz for drawing my attention to the writing of Michael Blume, especially the lecture on Darwin's evolutionary approach to religion. I appreciate his ideas on how religious thinking and practice came into being. However it came too late for inclusion in this essay which has been in preparation for some months now, but I don't doubt that Blume's work will feature in subsequent raves.

67 comments:

Robert M Ellis said...

Hi Jayarava,
I'm going to venture a comment here, because I think this is really excellent. I'm in full agreement with your 'hermeneutic of experience' and your balanced appraisal of both the plausibility and salience of rebirth. Your approach seems very much in harmony with my own account of the subject, which you can find at http://www.moralobjectivity.net/TwB_Chapter4.html if you're interested. I think there is more to say about karma, some of which you will find there. Also I think that this approach also suggests a review of the traditional Buddhist sense for eternalism and nihilism: see http://www.moralobjectivity.net/concept%20-%20eternalism.html and link there to the nihilism page for my accounts of them.
Best wishes,
Robert

dalhousie said...

Fabulous post--the entire series, really.

Here's a related post I bookmarked years ago, although the author is not as well studied: http://humanistcontemplative.blogspot.com/2008/05/naturalistic-approach-to-buddhist-karma.html

If Buddhists do not accommodate the observations of scientists we will inevitably find Buddhism being dismissed along with other religions (and rightly so).

Could not agree more!

Gambhiradaka said...

This is a great essay!
I have often thought that the Buddha's refusal to answer questions about rebirth was about him trying to steer people away from speculation and back to experience.

One point though would be; can we really draw any conclusions from neuroscience at this point. You say that experiments show that there are neural correlates for experiences, but the investigation of the brain is by no means exhausted and who knows really what will be discovered. Just because you haven't seen a black swan doesn't mean they don't exist, just because so far it seems to be the case that you can't have a brain independent consciousness doesn't mean it is true. I am agnostic on this.

The other point would be the role of intuition. You give a very good account of why we are compelled to feel like post mortum existence is desirable. However, i think that there is intuition which is more than just wanting something to be true because it feels safe. In my experience as therapist i am often amazed how i 'know' something about somebody based on non rational intuitions. Is there a role for intuiting some form of post morum continuation, despite a lack of evidence and reason?

Jeffrey Kotyk said...

"But at the very least memories must be preserved in some medium for recall, and every scrap of evidence we have ties human memory to our living brain."

You are mistaken. There is plenty of scraps of evidence to the contrary. You're probably aware of Ian Stevenson's research into kids recollecting past lives. That research continues at U of Virginia. See the following:

http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops/case_types-page

They have "evidence suggestive of" the phenomenon, though of course you can't -prove- rebirth completely as reproducing in a manner suitable to science isn't realistic.

There is more evidence for rebirth than against it.

Anonymous said...

The theme of rebirth is an integral part of the Buddhist goal. It underlies Right View, the foundation of the path and recurs throughout the Pali canon. From a modern perspective rebirth seems redundant and unsupportable. However when rebirth is cut out of the Buddhist path it should be acknowledged that what is created, necessarily has a different agenda from what is found in the canon. The idea that one is making Buddhism a more reasonable system by reformulating it minus rebirth is a project that moves further away from the heart of the Buddhist goal not closer.

Jayarava said...

@Jeffrey. Please refer to my blog: Rebirth and Scientific Method - 1 Oct 2010. It's you who are mistaken - for all the reasons I set out above and previously.

There is no *evidence* for rebirth. The anecdotes of young children can not be considered as evidence. They would not be given credence in a court of law, let alone a scientific investigation.

I do set out in that previous blog post what I would consider good evidence, and what would make me change my mind. Please consider those criteria carefully and let me know if any of the events I have outlined, or something similar, have occurred.

Jayarava said...

@Gambhiraḍāka

The minute someone finds evidence of mental activity without brain activity I will retract my claim. The black swan effect card can be over-played, and should be held along with tooth-fairy agnosticism. No one can prove that there isn't a tooth-fairy, and therefore the only intellectually honest point of view on the tooth-fairy is agnosticism. But that agnosticism should not prevent us from a sensible approach to disposing of our milk teeth.

What do you mean by "intuition"? Is it really non-rational - don't you just mean unconscious? Isn't it really just unconsciously processing inputs and coming up with a solution without a step by step process - pattern recognition in effect, combined with mirror neuron driven empathy. It still relies on assigning emotional value to facts - which is not something we do consciously anyway. I certainly don't think the cognitive processes I was describing happen consciously. I think we just have the conclusion without understanding anything at all about the process - which is why beliefs are so hard to shift.

Jayarava said...

@anonymous:

Nanu bhikkhave yadeva tumhākaṃ sāmaṇ ñātaṃ sāmaṃ diṭṭhaṃ sāmaṃ viditaṃ tadeva tumhe vadethāti?

Evaṃ bhante.

Sādhu bhkkhave.


Monks, isn't it just what you know for yourself, see for yourself, and understand for yourself that you talk about?

Yes Sir

Good monks.

M i.265. My translation.

~

He is not uncertain, or sceptical about, and has independent knowledge of this: ‘Arising is only arising of disappointment. What ceases with cessation is disappointment’. To this extent, Kaccāna, there is right-view.

Kaccānagotta Sutta (S ii.16) My translation.

~

So "anonymous" I'm just not convinced that your dogmatism is justified.

Can you actually cite a text where the Buddha defines right-view in terms of believing in rebirth?

Jayarava

Anonymous said...

MN117

“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realized for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.

Dogmatism? I do no hold to a belief in rebirth nor require others to do so in order to practice Buddhism. If you cannot accept that rebirth is an integral part of Buddhist path as set out in the canon then it would be more honourable to state that your ideas lie out side of it rather than trying to refashion the Buddhist path.

Paul P said...

In the Brahmajala sutta views 51 to 57 deal with the destruction of a being at the time of the break up of the body. Right view seems often to be stated as knowing what is wrong view which includes disavowing the next world. I am of course working on internet translations because I am writing this on my phone! I could well imagine that some of that relates to the causation of mental states.

I would also observe that the canon frequently depicts the Buddha stating the destination of one that has died - somewhat incongruous with stating only what is true if rebirth were not the case. Likewise the once returner etc.

I'm not big on rebirth myself - it doesn't matter much to me and seems often in western circles to be unhelpful - as has been observed before it solves the western problem of postmortem survival, but is in fact something that should be escaped according to tradition.

Just a few thoughts - be interested to see what you make of them.

ps. Although I am kind of following on from the anonymous post, I didn't write it.

Michael said...

Excellent. And exciting, inspiring. You have expressed a view that concurs very much with my own, but doubtless expressed much more eloquently and effectively than I would have done.

Will you be required to leave the Order?

(One of the main reasons I myself haven't sought such ordination was because in the final analysis I couldn't really bring myself out of an an "atheistic" (as opposed to agnostic) view of re-birth).

Jayarava said...

Dear Anonymous.

Could we have a name please. It would be more honourable, than failing to introduce yourself.

Look at what you're quoting...

" right view that is affected by the taints... there is this world and the other world, etc."

sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā or more literally: "right-view having a share of the self-defilements which ripen in attachment to rebirth".

Vepakka clearly implies an attachment to rebirth, rather than the more neutral "acquisitions". If I was being arch I would read this as saying that this is where the attachment to the being reborn comes from. That is to say that with piety comes a certainty about rebirth.

In any case, in terms of the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta what I'm talking about is described in the very next paragraph of that sutta: i.e sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā, i.e. "right-view which is noble, without taints, going beyond 'the world', the arms of the path." And which forms the main subject of the sutta.

And I read everything with the Kaccānagotta Sutta in mind. Neither atthi or n'atthi apply to loka. And only dukkha arises. I also read it with the Sabba Sutta in mind - paraphrasing it says that the āyatanas are everything (totality, reality) and if you try to describe another reality you're just confused. Some suttas just seem more fundamental than others, and so quoting at random doesn't really undermine the position - one has to understand each text in context, to know where it fits in the picture.

To Mahāpajāpati the Buddha said that anything which conduces to liberation is the Dhamma. If you want to refresh your memory on this I have written about it What is the Dharmma, and what isn't it?

I think orthodoxy is entirely inconsequential - in many ways I don't care what people believe, or what they think about what I believe. Orthopraxy is far more important and relevant. I'm trying to find ways of encouraging rational people to take up and persevere with Buddhist practices because I think the transformation that accompanies such practices is what the world needs. The supernatural quite simply gets in the way for the majority of people these days. And the supernatural is not essential to Buddhism - and most of the Buddhists I know go along with this if only in spirit. Rebirth is irrelevant to the way Buddhists practice in the West - even when they purport to believe in it. What I'm doing is regularising what is already the case by showing that it is not even heterodox when you consider the Buddha's view as I discern it in the Pāli texts.

I've said this time and again. I'm not a Buddhist because I subscribe to some Iron Age or Medieval Indian belief system. I'm a Buddhist because I have experienced the benefits of Buddhist practices, and I've seen those practices transform the lives of others. I don't much care whether some anonymous person from the internet agrees with me or not. ahaṃ sāmaṇ ñātvā, sāmaṃ disvā, sāmaṇ viditvā, evaṃ vadāmi.

Gambhiradaka said...

There are still a few nagging issues for me here.
One is a point which Sangharakshita makes which is that so far throughout Buddhist history nobody has stated that rebirth is not true. (I'm taking his word for it). If it is possible to state this in a strait forward way why has this not been done before? And as far as i understand it there are some Dharma practitioners who have down a heck of a lot more study and meditation than any of us have. Either they are wrong. They had insight into this issue but remained silent for some reason. They figured that since belief of non belief in rebirth is inconsequential, if your culture believes in rebirth it is more skilful to let them carry on. (Is this the first time that Buddhism has engaged with a culture who do not predominantly already believe in rebirth?) Or clarity about this issue arises through deep meditative experience not reason.

As i'm writing this i realise i am not well informed about what other Buddhist traditions other than the Tibetans think about rebirth. What about the Zen, Chan, Pure Land, Shingon traditions...anybody?

Jayarava said...

Hi Gambhiraḍāka

GḌ. "One is a point which Sangharakshita makes which is that so far throughout Buddhist history nobody has stated that rebirth is not true."

JR. I just did! Not only is rebirth not true, but the truth or fiction of it is irrelevant!

The acceptance of rebirth is part of a pre-scientific world view in which an afterlife seems preferable and plausible. With the advent of science the latter is no longer true. I've covered this. Science, and especially the neuroscience of the last two decades has changed everything.

Part of the problem is that no Dharma practitioner comes to insight without cultural conditioning. In traditional Buddhism one spends one's whole life being indoctrinated with metaphysical explanations of what Buddhism is about. One masters Buddhist philosophy sometimes decades before one's meditation is sufficiently subtle that insights will arise (if it ever does). One knows exactly what one is going to say about bodhi decades before one ever experiences it.

If one then has a substantial insight experience one finds it almost impossible to conceive and communicate it except in those deeply inculcated terms. Besides, all of one's audience are similarly indoctrinated so if one chooses another mode of communication one risks being ignored or misunderstood. Witness my anonymous critic yesterday and today.

Metaphysical doctrines, inculcated over decades, and socially reinforced at every turn, become self-fulfilling prophecies.

Is it any wonder that no one has questioned rebirth? No traditional Buddhist has ever really questioned anything canonical. The worst a Buddhist critic can usually say is that a particular doctrine is OK, but "provisional". C.f. my critique of Abhidharma!

The European Enlightenment allowed human beings to really begin to question the validity of religious doctrines for the first time in history. Having extricated ourselves from under the thumb of the Pope and God, we seem in an awful hurry to place the foot of Gautama over our heads. It's as if Galileo never lived in the minds of some Buddhists!

What I observe about people who've had substantial insight experience is that these kinds of conflicts are not what they talk about. They talk about how the mind or the ego conditions experience and makes us unhappy. Yes? And they do so, on the whole, in the terms they have imbibed from the start of their Buddhist education. They believe in rebirth or not, on the same basis that we do.

I think one must be very cautious with Tibetan views on rebirth. They are certainly different from other Buddhist views. A direct contradiction of early Buddhist views as one find in the Pāli texts for instance.

We must not accept traditions on their own terms.

It's vital to doubt, and to question. For me this includes my own traditions. Science is also my tradition, but it comes with doubt as a feature, not a bug.

We must also be clear that this conversation is relatively inconsequential for practising Buddhists. It will not affect how most people actually do Buddhism. Will it? I'm really just tidying up a minor loose end.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Jayarava said...

Hi Michael,

You ask "Will you be required to leave the Order?"

Lord, no! My opinions are pretty mild by comparison with some. Yesterday another member of the order described this post to me as "cogent, engaging and satisfying." One is free to have opinions, and I know for a fact that many people broadly agree with me.

The Triratna Order is focussed on Going for Refuge rather than adherence to metaphysics - we are official "metaphysically reticent" these days ;-) (though I think we could go further down that road). It is true that we teach the intellectual side of the Dharma in quite a traditional way, but most people I know are at best agnostic about rebirth. What matters far more is one's ability to engage effectively with the practices we teach.

One also has to be in good communication with other Order members, and in the ordination process especially with Kalyana Mitras and preceptors, and be on good terms with Sangharakshita as the founder of the Order.

But many different ways of thinking of consistent with these criteria.

Also it's very, very rare that anyone is required to leave our Order - even in quite extreme circumstances we have often simply waited for the person concerned to resolve things themselves. By the time someone gets ordained they have close friendships with a number of us and are a valued member of our community. We don't easily give up on our friends. Indeed these friendships often survive people leaving the order.

Asking for Ordination, if you take it seriously, usually means having to examine what you believe and what the consequences of those beliefs are. Which can be both invigorating and unnerving. But it's done amongst like minded friends which gives it a special savour.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Jayarava said...

Hi Paul,

To my mind the Brahmajāla Sutta is a very late, possibly post-Asoka, piece of writing. So I don't find it influences my thinking very much. But let's look at it.

The wrong views you mention relate to ways of talking about the self at death. Specifically they seem to assume that the self exists in some way during life, and the wrong view is that the self is destroyed at death. Not "a being" note, but "this self" (ayaṃ attā) - ayaṃ being the pronoun of presence; of something immediately present to the speaker.

The question to ask about these views is why are they not criticised just for proposing a self in the first place? Why is it only the annihilation of self which is criticised? Compare this situation with the Alagaddupama Sutta (my translation) which contains an outright denial of self. Something is rotten here.

My view on the self is wholly in line with the middle way - the sense of self is a dependently arisen phenomena. It is not a thing that can be passed from life to life. But I am also saying that a memory is the same - i.e. that it is a dependently arisen phenomena that cannot be passed from life to life. This is an argument not anticipated by the Brahmajāla Sutta, indeed it blindly accepts that memories can be recovered from past lives.

Note that the text does not define right view with respect to the self - on this subject you may want to look at the Alagaddupama Sutta which is the locus classicus.

Also compare the nihilist views with the eternalist views (Views 1-4 Walsh p.73ff - section 1.29-35). Isn't it interesting that the author saw eternalistic views as resulting from misinterpreting past-life memories? This is not my argument, of course, but it suggests that even the early Buddhists were aware that it is possible to grossly misinterpret an experience in eternalistic terms.

Basically there's nothing much of relevance to the discussion in the Brahmajāla Sutta. It's entirely over-rated as a compendium of wrong views, and seems to go along with the idea of ātman in some way which I find vaguely disturbing.

One must read suttas with a critical eye, and with another eye on the rest of the Canon!

Re your other point I'm not arguing that rebirth is not found in the Canon. I'm arguing that the Canon is just repeating traditional metaphysics that have now been so undermined by science that they are no longer credible. So we don't have to take them seriously any more. And I find it a great relief to say so!

Neither "I", nor my memories will survive death. I'm not happy about this, by the way, but I think it's the obvious conclusion if one examines the evidence.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

elisa freschi said...

Hi Jayarava,
thanks for the post. My comment is (as often the case) marginal: I highly appreciate your stress on the phenomenology of experience vs. ontology. I recently wrote that we (=Western scholars coming after Plato-Aristotle-…-Heidegger) are used to see ontology as lying at the foundation of every system of philosophy. We are hence biased towards reading Indian philosophy in the same way and we often misconstrue its arguments as if they were ontological ones. By contrast, much of Indian philosophy is (in my opinion) phenomenological and its foundation is not ontology but rather epistemology.

Modern and pre-modern Buddhists may have done the same when they reinterpred the pratītyasamutpāda in an ontological way instead of reading it as discussing the phenomenology of experience.

Jayarava said...

Hi Elisa

Yes, I think it is quite hard to reconcile East and West because of ontology. Though of course Phenomenology is also Western invention.

It is interesting if we place epistemology first and ask what we can know, before we try to ask what there is - it places limits on knowledge right from the start. My impression, from very little reading, is that the Greek philosophers took the opposite approach - trying to say what exists before asking what we could know about it. And we have that legacy.

And yes, it is phenomenology of experience which is interesting, not the phenomenology of the "world". Experience is always a product of observer and observed in combination.

I'm really quite puzzled by why Buddhists would have become interested in ontology. They obviously did, but I have yet to discover a theory about what made them go in that direction. Could they have been through interaction with Bactrian Greeks like King Menander?

Regards
Jayarava

elisa freschi said...

Thank you, Jayarava, this was exactly my point (Greek authors tend to look at the world before starting to inquire about knowledge, this is why Kant's attempt is revolutionary).
As for Buddhists, I tend to think that much more than what we think is really still phenomenological (I read the Abhidharma "ontology" as a phenomenology, for instance —see Alexander Piatigorsky). And I would add the "natural" bias towards the WYSIWYG attitude, that makes it possibly easier for one to think that if I see X, X exists.
As you know, I am extremely skeptical about alien influences. If the Greeks influenced Buddhist thought, this means that Buddhist thought was ready to receive these inputs. And I would rather think of the strong influence of the non-Buddhist schools upholding direct realism, such as Nyāya and (in a less extant) Mīmāṃsā.

lalitaraja said...

Another stimulating post Jayarava, although I'm still agnostic about the matter in hand, at least I'm a better informed agnositic than I was 10 minutes ago...
With regard to intuition Claire Petitmengin-Peugeot: The intuitive experience: a first-person empirical investigation in Varela's The view from within is worth a look. Qualitative research identifying the intuitive experience and how it can work. I wonder if Gambiradake has come accross this?

Triratna Bodhgaya said...

Hi Lalitarāja

Agnosticism (a state of not-knowing) is usually the most intellectually honest response to any claim. After all what is knowledge? How can we know? I don't even know the answer to this question.

But an afterlife no longer seems probable, and I would not act on the basis that I will have one. Just as I don't act on the basis that I will win the lottery any day now. I'm more likely to die tomorrow than win the lottery.

I looked at the abstract of the article you mentioned. The language of the abstract struck me rather romantic. Even by the end of the first sentence I was saying to myself "I doubt it". To say that intuition lies "at the heart of human experience" already betrays a range of cultural assumptions that I question. I note that other papers in the same issue betray the same kind of assumptions in their titles and abstracts so presumably this is a bias the editors do not see, or do not challenge. If one is going to take a phenomenological approach one does not start with a description and look for phenomena that fit it, one starts with phenomena and tries to describe them. My question to Gambhiraḍāka remains: what is intuition? It will not do to treat it as an a priori category.

Cheers
Jayarava

Triratna Bodhgaya said...

Hi Elisa,

I realised today that you take what I write quite seriously, and I felt grateful for your serious attention.

I wish I had the inclination to read Kant. Everything I hear about him sounds fascinating. I even bought a translation of the Critique of Pure Reason...

I think a lot of people might disagree with my assertion that Abhidharmikas introduced ontological thinking into Buddhism. Rupert Gethin's recent review of Richard Gombrich's book (What the Buddha Thought) for instance appears not to accept this contention (para 3). I think Colette Cox defends the Sarvastivadins from this charge as well - I don't have the reference to hand.

I very much like the application of WYSIWYG to cognition. Thomas Metzinger says we are all naive realists - which is much the same thing. But WYSIWYG is much more appealing. There *is* a natural bias in this way. However the Buddha emphasises time and again that this is not his view of experience. This is why it is surprising that Buddhists started to think ontologically at all. It goes against the injunctions of our founder. Perhaps they simply stopped studying those kinds of text?

I understand the scepticism about "alien influences". But I don't think the Bactrian Greeks were alien to the environment - they are mentioned in passing in the Pāli texts, and later ruled Gandhāra for a time (and Gandhāra was a major centre for Buddhist innovation). My recent studies suggests a significant input from Iran and Zoroastrianism as well. However I accept that there may be more natural candidates for influence from closer to home. My ignorance of Nyāya and Mīmāṃsā are the main reasons I don't immediately think of them. A study of how these schools of thought influenced Buddhism, and at what stage, would be quite useful. Is there one?

Best Wishes
Jayarava

elisa freschi said...

Hi Jayarava,
you realised it *today*? What did you think until now?

Thanks for pointing to Gethin's review, it is very interesting and also a pleasure to read (I really liked the end of the first paragraph!). And yes, I was claiming something similar. In short: the "ontology" of the Abhidharma, qua ontology is a failure (what would it mean to categorise entities as "mental", "connected with the mind" or "non-mental"? The distinction among substances, qualities and actions makes more sense if you aim at describing entities). For the principle of charity, and given the non-ontological approach of much of the Buddhist thought, I would hence suggest to take it as a phenomenology.

My point about "alien" influences is a general one. I do not think ideas are borrowed unless the recipient is ready to adopt them (just like phonemes, which can be borrowed from one language to the other only if the general phonetic system allows for it —if you allow me the comparison). Last, I am sorry, but I am not aware of any study like the one you suggest… Interesting idea, though…

Triratna Bodhgaya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jayarava said...

Elisa

It was the difference between knowing it and feeling it.

Yes the review was nicely done. I've met Prof. Gombrich several times now and like him a great deal. His enthusiasm is infectious. He's also very generous with his time. I haven't met Rupert Gethin, but I like his writing - he's very level headed.

I think ideas and practices seem to have been quite freely exchanged in the ancient world. The ancient Indians seem more open to new ideas than Christian Europe. They still argue, but at the same time as arguing they exchange memes promiscuously. I like them for it.


Cheers
Jayarava

Swanditch said...

It seems to me that the question of what might happen to one after death depends on the question of what one is now.

Jayarava said...

Hi Swanditch

If anything at all happens to one after death - which seems doubtful.

The "I" that one is now probably does not survive death in any case, so connecting post-mortem fate with one's present life is deeply problematic (as above).

Any metaphysics which posits a right and a wrong way to behave causes the afterlife to diverge minimally into a good destination and a bad destination. Gananatha Obeyesekere's book Imagining Karma goes into this in more detail. One can see it, e.g. in Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad even thought right/wrong are not linked to ethics. It is a feature of the Egyptian Book of the Dead and central to Zoroastrianism. Obeyesekere also examines other rebirth eschatologies from around the world.

Ciao
Jayarava

Robert M Ellis said...

I am interested to hear that the Order is "official "metaphysically reticent" these days ;-)". Can you say where this comes from and what you think it means, Jayarava?

I left the Triratna Order (then WBO), not because of rebirth specifically, but because of the dominance of metaphysical thinking and commitment to tradition as an end in itself. I began to feel too much of a conflict between what I was committed to (the Middle Way) and what the rest of the Order appeared to be overwhelmingly committed to. The day that the Order is prepared to state explicitly that it puts pragmatic criteria before traditional ones is the day I will ask to re-join it.

Jayarava said...

Hi Robert,

I am referring to Subhtui's document: Revering and Relying upon the Dharma. (pdf).

This one of a series of long essays based on recent conversations between Subhūti and Saṅgharakṣita. Each is recommended to the Order by Saṅgharakṣita with a request to think carefully about it. This is about as close to official policy as we get.

For the record *I* place pragmatic criteria before traditional ones. I think the same is true of a lot of the people involved in the Mindfulness Boom.

It's a bit off topic for the blog but we could continue by email if you like.

Jayarava

lalitaraja said...

Hi again Jayarava, I"m happy in my agnosticism, it keeps me curious, but that is my inclination. Perhaps I'm a bit of a romantic or at least part of me is. The centrality of intuition comes from Heidegger
She quotes Heidegger: ‘intuition represents the ideal of all knowledge, the ideal of understanding of being in general’ (Heidegger, in Petitmengin-Peugeot 1999: 43).
I can see what you mean though, and it does alert me to be cautious in approaching this material. I've copied out a wee summary from an article I'm working on. It rings true for me in relationship to what happens in the studio when I'm choreographing.
"Her phenomenological research looked at ‘modeling and comparison of different descriptions’ in psychotherapy sessions from which there ‘emerged a generic structure of the intuitive experience, which is made up of a succession of very precise interior gestures’ (Petitmengin-Peugeot, 1999: p59) She groups these into four headings that occurred in large numbers of the test subjects that were interviewed:
• Letting go, slowing down, interior self-collecting (mindfulness)
• Connecting with the object of intuitive knowledge
• Listening that is both panoramic and very discriminating, with emphasis on the subtle signs that the intuition is close at hand
• The intuitive experience itself"

Jayarava said...

Hi Lalitarāja

Is the "She" you refer to several times "Claire Petitmengin-Peugeot"?

I'm still not clear what you mean by "intuition". Without knowing how you and your sources are using this word I have no idea what you are talking about (or why you think it's relevant to the subject of rebirth). But what it sounds like is *magical thinking* with respect to unconscious thought processes. Which is really the opposite of what I'm interested in.

The quotes from Petitmengin-Peugeot just sound confused to me, or confusing (one or the other, but in any case they are not producing any kind of comprehension). A lot of big words used in ways that don't seem to correspond to every day language or to phenomena - which makes me wonder if this can be phenomenology at all.

There's really no point in quoting this kind of thing. It looks to me that it could only be understood in a very specific context which I don't have.

seanrobsville said...

To be entirely physical, any system should (must?) be compatible with the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle, which states that a universal computing device can simulate every physical process.

The principle appears to work fine when applied to purely physical systems, but it runs into some interesting problems when we try to extend it to simulating the mind. If we assume that the CTD principle is universally applicable, then evidence suggests that aspects of the mind may lie outside the scope of physics: http://rational-buddhism.blogspot.com/2012/02/church-turing-deutsch-principle-and.html

Jayarava said...

@seanrbosville

A quick look at your blog suggests that you are working with an entirely different paradigm of the mind than I am. In one post you say:

"Buddhist philosophers claim the mind is a fundamental aspect of reality".

No. they don't claim that. Or at least this Buddhist Philosopher and his sources do not. I can't imagine why anyone would claim something like that - it would make one an eternalist. Indeed it sounds more like Upaniṣadic Hinduism to me!

Ontological thinking, especially with respect to the mind, is just not helpful. There is no Pāli or Sanskrit word that corresponds to our idea of "reality". 'Satya' is similar in it's face value, in Vedic and Hindu texts, but even there it isn't used in the same ontological way. In Buddhism 'satya' loses it 'reality' connotation altogether and just means 'truth' in the sense of 'honest statements'.

I don't think that "reality" is a helpful term in Buddhist discourse, let alone something that has definite characteristics like mind. To the Hindu however, brahman has three fundamental aspects (lakṣana) saccidānda or sat 'truth', cit 'mind' and ānanda 'bliss'. This is precisely the kind of thing that early Buddhists were arguing against in formulating the Buddhist trilakṣana: anitya, duḥkha and anātman.

My goal was to cast doubt on the relevance of rebirth for contemporary Buddhist practice. To do that I don't need to invoke absolutes or a Theory of Everything (another project I avoid as unhelpful), I just have to show that there are real problems with the idea. Rebirth's falsehood is not more miraculous than its truth - paraphrasing Hume. I leave it to believers to come up with solutions to the problems I've posed, though I have outlined some testable propositions and acceptable evidence in an earlier post on rebirth and the scientific method. Not surprisingly no one has taken up my challenge yet.

I'm in no position to assess whether the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle is relevant here or not. But I can see that some of your starting assumptions are invalid, so your argument cannot be sustained. I see no philosophical difficulties in simulating a mind. I see practical limitations, but work by people like Thomas Metzinger and Mark Johnson (in defining what mind is), and by Harvey Markram and Stephen Thaler (in simulating brain function) make it seem to me that it is a matter of sufficient time and resources.

Ontologies just seem to get in the way of reasoning - perhaps because we become attached to our putative realities. We simply do not need to understand the entire universe to be better people. Nor do we even need a completely philosophy of mind to meditate. The goal of Buddhism is to have a particular kind of experience which is achieved largely through practices and not through intellectual effort. That said I believe that intellectual confusion is problematic in that it undermines our efforts by distracting us from what's important.

Regards
Jayarava

seanrobsville said...

Some sources regarding existential dependence upon mind:

"In addition to being dependent upon causes and parts, phenomena are also dependent upon their being imputed by the mind. This is a much subtler mode of dependence and is more difficult to understand than dependence on causes and parts. However, it is very important to grasp what this means. It is often said that all phenomena are merely imputed by the mind and that nothing whatsoever can exist independently of such imputation. But what does it mean to impute something with the mind? Actually, to impute (btags.pa) means nothing more than to apprehend ('dzin.pa). We may think of a lamp in our room at home. In thinking of it we apprehend it, and in apprehending it we are "imputing" it. Thus imputation is the mind's fundamental quality of apprehending objects."
- Geshe Rabten, from "Echoes of Voidness," translated by Stephen Batchelor http://www.american-buddha.com/commen.void.htm


"It is interesting to note that in the later dGe lugs commentarial tradition, three varieties of existential dependence are distinguished: causal dependence, when an object depends for its existence on its causes and conditions, mereological dependence, when an object depends on its parts; and conceptual dependence, postulating the dependence of an object on a basis of designation, a designating mind,and a term used to designate the object"
Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka - Jan Westerhoff p27 ISBN 978 0 19 538496 3


"If phenomena don’t independently exist than how do they exist? The Middle Way tells us that they dependently exist in three fundamental ways. First, phenomena exist dependent upon causes and conditions. For example, carrots depend upon soil, sunlight, moisture, freedom from rodents, and so forth. Second, phenomena depend upon the whole and its parts. Carrots depend upon its greens, stem, root hairs, and so on and the totality of all these parts. Third, and most profoundly, phenomena depend upon mental imputation, attribution, or designation. From the rich panoply of experience, I collect the sense qualities, personal associations, and psychological reactions to carrots together, and name them or designate them as "carrot." The mind’s proper functioning is to construct its world, the only world we can know. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/timeimpe.htm

Regards
- Sean Robsville

Jayarava said...

Hi Sean

None of these quotes substantiate your claim. They all say that one's mind is necessary aspect of experience. Which I agree with. But this is nothing to do with "reality" let alone "a fundamental aspect of reality". A fundamental aspect of experience? Yes. But reality? Nope.

It seems to me that you've taken an epistemological argument and concretised it into an ontology. One needs to look closely at what is meant by loka 'world' in Indian languages and Buddhism in particular. If you can be bothered I suggest you read the first few sections of my long essay on Paṭicca-Samuppāda as a Theory of Everything. Loka is first and foremost the "world" of experience - the sum total of our present experience. "Reality" is not a relevant word in relation to this kind of construct. As the Buddha says in the Kaccānagotta Sutta and Nāgārjuna says in the MMK (15.7) 'it exists' and 'it doesn't exist' do not apply to loka.

My reading of Nāgārjuna is that despite being lumbered with the ontological thinking that had infected post Abhidharmika Buddhism he still understood that ontology has nothing to do with Buddhism, and managed to partially salvage Buddhist philosophy by introducing the idea of śūnyatā which first ad foremost is designed to undermine all ontologies.

The very last sentence would be the one to focus on and follow up. Think in terms of epistemology.

Regards
Jayarava

Jayarava said...

It occurred to me on my afternoon stroll today that we could replace the word "reality" with the word "virtuality". As I mentioned in my rave about virtual community" that the word virtual is defined in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary "virtual" as:

adj. 1 that is such for practical purposes though not in name or according to strict definition. 2 Optics. relating to the points at which rays would meet if produced backwards. 3. Mech. relating to an infinitesimal displacement of a point in a system. 4. Computing. not physically existing as such but made by software to appear to do so.

Thomas Metzinger makes good use of this word: he talks about virtual self-models for instance. What we are dealing with in experience is not reality, but a virtual model created on the basis of sensory input, and mental processing at a number of levels, most of which are unconscious. In Metzinger's model we have no access to the black box which produces our virtual models - we treat experience as a WYSIWYG interface (thanks to Elisa Freschi for this idea). In Metzinger's terms we are naive realists.

So, what we experience is virtuality not reality. It may be that there is an underlying reality, but we do not have access directly to it - every sensation or percept is a complex product of sense object, sense faculty and sense consciousness. There is no way around this. So we can only talk about a construct (saṃkhāra), a virtuality. What we seek through Buddhist practice is insight into, or better seeing through (vipassanā) the virtuality to how we react to it.

Dhivan Thomas Jones said...

Hello Jayarava, I like the way that you get people thinking. There were things about your essay that I went along with and things that I was less convinced by. But I am right with you in the overall project of bringing the Dharma into conversation with the achievements of modern science.

It strikes me that, with regard to rebirth, all you have to say is that any talk of an afterlife is predicated on dualistic metaphysics, which would appear to be mistaken. That leaves us with the interesting task of understanding the origins of such metaphysics, which is part of what you explore in your essay (in the hermeneutic bit).

I think we should acknowledge however that the Buddha did appear to teach rebirth, even if we find examples of apparent equivocation in the Canon. So it looks like there is bound to be a tension between rejecting dualistic metaphysics and taking the Pali texts seriously - an interesting creative tension no doubt.

By the way, in relation to Abhidharma ontology, Sue Hamilton's little book 'Indian Philosophy: a very short introduction' gives some hints as to the relation between Abhidharmika ontologizing and Vaiśeṣika ontology, which you could probably follow up on.

Jayarava said...

Hi Dhīvan

That was your first comment wasn't it? Welcome! And thanks. I like the way you can sum up my 3.5k word essay in a sentence!

People often doubt me when I suggest that the Buddha was dualistic in some ways (the pernicious influence of Advaita Vedanta on Buddhism?). But yes if we accept that he taught rebirth, and the that rebirth is inherently dualistic, then he thought dualistically.

I was hedging on rebirth and the Buddha, and I would say that I remain agnostic but lean towards your view. I certainly don't think there are convincing arguments to say that the Buddha did not teach rebirth, but all this assumes that we know what the Buddha taught. I try to preserve a modicum of doubt on that subject.

I have Sue Hamilton's book but it's been a while since I looked at it. Elisa also pointed me towards Vaiśeṣika ontology. I'll dig it out.

bhavaṃ atthu
Jayarava

Adam Cope said...

Hello Jayarava

Just a simple question about words, please.

Is the Pali/Sankrit really 're-born' i.e. born again? What is Pali/Sanskrit for 'born'?

Is 'rebirth' really the only possible translation? Any suggestions of another word?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Also, a reflection about Lavoiser's Law of Conservation (Nothing is destroyed, nothing is created) i.e. thermodynamics & the basis of all ecology & closed systems ... it is possible to think in terms of 'manifestation','continuation', 'mutation', 'consequence', 'evolution' when looking for continuity in an entire system rather than the abrupt ending of a single, individual component of that system.

Not much help to us death-anxious individuals however. Sometimes, the feeling that I am part of larger whole & can transcend alienation/separation by a shift in understanding appeases somewhat this anxiety. When I die, it is my awareness of the whole system that dies, not the whole system itself.

I am reminded of Alan Watts: 'We are not born INTO this world but born OUT OF this world' ... i.e. we do not pass from non-being to being & then back into non-being but rather we exist for a brief while as a compounded self with no real core (anatta) then are disbanded & return back into the basic elements from which we were compounded (rupa).i.e. globally nothing was created, nothing was destroyed...

Only the consequences of our actions continue on after our death.
I include children, ancestors, DNA survival, our contributions to larger 'organisms' such as art, culture, thought, religion, economics, etc, here as well as our 'footprint' in the eco-system itself (radioactive nuclear waste being mankind's principal contribution to the planet as a whole, a continuation for many thousands of years).

I have always found it difficult to consider rebirth without addressing the question 'what is being reborn'? If one truly believes in non-self (I suppose this is what you mean by nilhist?), then the rebirth question shifts back onto karma . 'A man is the sum of his actions' as Satre put it.

The consequences of these actions live on in this world & not outside of this world, in some otherworld.

Jayarava said...

Hi Adam

The answer is less simple than you might imagine. The word we usually translation as rebirth is punabbhava (Sanskrit punarbhava). Here punar means 'again' and bhava means 'becoming/being'. The early Upaniṣads often use the term punarmṛtyu meaning re-death. So the word is not really "birth" at all.

Born comes from √jan - which gives us words like jāti (birth, caste). Birth (past-participle) would be jāta.

The literal translation is "again-becoming". I think rebirth is OK, though it has a slightly passive connotation and in Buddhist thought it's obvious active. The places where you can be reborn are all gati 'goings', 'places to go to'. However one could ask whether bhava even refers to rebirth at all. I don't have references to hand, but it does seem that in the Pāli texts bhava is used in this way.

cont...

Jayarava said...

...cont

I think you have over generalised Lavoiser's Law - it concerns mass in a closed system. So if you combine 1g of calcium carbonate and 1g of hydrochloric acid in a sealed flask, then you will still have 2g of combined calcium chloride and carbon dioxide at the end. If you don't seal the flask you have to subject the weight of the carbon dioxide which would escape.

It is only mass that is not created or destroyed and only at the level of chemistry. If we added 1g of hydrogen, and 1g of anti-hydrogen the there would be 0g of mass at the end of the process because matter and anti-matter annihilate completely to energy. OK?

Newton's Law extended the principle to something we call energy in a closed system - one of the most misunderstood and misused words in our lexicon. I wish the word had never been picked up by the new age, but such is life.

The body is not a closed system - it exchanges matter and energy with it's surroundings.

In terms of Lavoiser's Law when we die our mass remains constant. There really is no "23g" of difference. If we have a soul it has no mass.

In terms of Newton's Law what happens is that the heat in our body gradually leaks away to the environment. As such the various chemical processes that sustain life, such as respiration, fail to reach the required activation energy (i.e. temperature) and the reactions stop happening. However for every human cell in our body, 100 bacterial cells are associated with us - mostly on surfaces including our skin and gut. These bacteria continue their independent existence using our body as food. The body takes a couple of hours to cool to ambient, some organic chemical reactions continue for some hours. After that the reactions of decay begin to over take those of life and we begin to leak mass to the environment as well, until in most cases all of our matter and energy is redistributed to the environment with no retention of the information (you could not trace all the molecules and re-create a body - entropy makes our hard-drive unrecoverable).

If you like the idea of thinking in terms of ecological continuity and haven't read Lynn Margulis then I'd recommend her. She emphasises the community nature of life, and has said "Evolution is community ecology over time".

But what unsettles most of us is that "I" will die. And I is not matter per se, but a construct maintained by the living brain - and numerous experiments have now made clear.

I would say that the consequences of actions in this world live on in this world. If there is another world we can know precisely zero about it because getting there requires the death of our organ of knowing. If there is some other mechanism of knowing then it is up to believers to show it exists and how it works. As I have said repeatedly now I've set out some ways this might be done - i.e. I have outlined what would constitute good evidence. No one has taken this challenge, or even pointed to a researcher who has. I think this is because with metaphysical beliefs we know that actual observation tends to destroy the belief - the God of the Gaps argument I mention in today's post (10.2.12). I'm also reminded of Douglas Adams' "babel fish" argument for and against the existence of God.

Regards
Jayarava

Christian said...

Hi Jayarava,
In response to an earier comment of yours: What is the point of going for refuge if you do not believe in rebirth? If you believe all conciousness is brain activity and after that ends it's annihilation, what is the point of taking refuge?

Best wishes,
Christian

Jayarava said...

Hi Christian

I suppose you need to ask what you go for refuge from? That is why do you go for refuge at all. It has never occurred to me that I go for refuge because I believe in rebirth. I go for refuge because I suffer.

BTW I did not say that all consciousness is brain activity and that it ends in annihilation. You've done the classic thing of not reading carefully enough what I have said, and supper-imposing some other (pre-conceived) idea on what I did say. I'll be happy to answer your questions when you can demonstrate that you've understood my point.

Regards
Jayarava

Christian said...

Jayarava,
I have to admit, you do make a compelling case, now that I have gone back and read your article in its entirety (guilty). And I do see what you are driving at, namely that it is beyond the scope of the Buddha's teachings to assert, generally, anything regarding what exists or doesn't exist after/outside of this life, and, specifically, that unless verifiable evidence can be brought to light, that rebirth itself is plausible. I have to be honest that as compelling as you argument is, it is equally painful to digest: we really are going to have to be spiritual warriors to stand strong in the belief that this is IT -- one go 'round. That's hard to bear, but maybe that is what the Buddha meant when he taught to be in the moment, to live without hope or fear. But you are correct, I certainly do not see your perspective as being un-Buddhist, quite the contrary.

How would the annihilationist point of view affect taking vows, which I don't think you can deny have the purport of after-life appreciations, especially with the lifelong vows? I ask with the same intention as when I asked about going for refuge. Extending our logic, what is the point ultimately? Or is there any point to even asking that question?

Best regards,
Christian

PS--Do you think David Hume's assertion that there is always a leap we have to make in (the Custom) of inferring that causes will continue, ad infinitum, to produce the same effect in the same situation, when we learn cause-and-effect from experience, is the same as this emotion we use to assign value to facts? Is this this "secret power" of the connection of the cause and the effect. Did the Buddha teach on this?

Jayarava said...

Hi Christian

I do appreciate you taking the time to read the whole article - it shows in your response. I know the temptation to skip bits... reading a long block of text on a computer screen is less than ideal! But the argument works better when taken as a whole.

I must say that my own reaction to my conclusions is mixed. On one hand it is a profound relief to have reached a point of clarity for myself - I remember a moment while reading Thomas Metzinger's book The Ego Tunnel when I realised that I have finally cast off my lingering doubts. I finally felt confident.

On the other hand this puts me at odds with some people I love and admire, including some members of the Triratna Order, including Sangharakshita. That's an uncomfortable position to be in. Someone asked if I'd have to resign now. I won't, but it does create an internal tension for me.

Metzinger urges caution in attacking people's afterlife beliefs because they are so deeply rooted. I wouldn't go out of my way to proselytise this view of mine, people read this blog from their own choice, but again I no longer feel any doubt. I'm open to being proved wrong, but I'll be proceeding on this basis until then.

Just to be clear I do not think of this view as annihilationist. I still believe that dhammas arise and pass away and this is the criteria for right-view in the Kaccānagotta Sutta. To be clear no Buddhist theory of an afterlife I know of allows for the continuity of personality through lives - "I" has always ended at death. What is supposedly inherited is the unripened karma of the past. This has always seemed a bit unfair to me - why should I inherit someone else's problem? Buddhist karma and rebirth beliefs are far less clear and comprehensible than most people think - if you start to look at the in detail, which I wish more people would do, you begin to see contradictions everywhere.

I take my own lifelong vows seriously because they give form to my strong convictions about the best way to live, but I have never thought that making vows for another life make sense in terms of Buddhist afterlife theories anyway. I suppose the best one could hope for would be to leave less mess for the next being. This works better as an ecological metaphor.

The point? Well we have the potential to be better, and that scale of better (more ethical, more wise) has no discernible end point. As far as I can tell we can continue to develop without limit. I can see the extent of my present ability to live with my limitations, and to rise above them. I see my human ability to empathise with friends and strangers as a wonder of the universe (we humans are amazing) - and I know that this ability can be developed and extended. I totally believe that developing is worth pursuing. If this is the only life we have, as seems likely, then surely this leaves us with an imperative to make it a good one!

To me science is the best way to understand the world (reality if you like). But Buddhism is the best way to live in that world. With some caveats of course, since I don't endorse all of the doctrines and practices associated with Buddhism at it presently exists around the world.

cont...

Jayarava said...

...cont

My answer to Hume would be Kant's from the Critique of Pure Reason (to the extent that I understand Kant, which is not much). Empiricism has limits that mean that you can't solve all problems with that approach. Cause and effect is an a priori concept required to make sense of what we experience.

As far as I can tell the Buddha spent no time on such metaphysical questions. He asked very different questions to Western philosophers and so emphasised different answers. My impression is that initially Buddhists only applied paṭicca-sammupāda to the arising and passing away of mental states. This is not really about cause and effect. I don't see paṭicca-sammupāda as a theory of causation. In Pāli it's a passive process: paṭicca is a gerund (a action which precedes the main verb) which literally means "having rested upon". Pāli does not see an active cause or agent, it sees a passive *foundation* upon which something else can arise (sam-up-pāda 'together-up-stepping'). This is very different from our notions of cause and effect. Not at all what interested Hume or Kant, as far as I understand them.

Best Wishes
Jayarava

Christian said...

I also thank you for your honesty in that you have come to a conviction that for you is beyond retraction if you are not given proper evidence to the contrary, and that you are willing to stand beside it despite the friction it may cause. That's not easy. I must say I find your blog to be exceptional not only for its vast scope but that you ask readers to look more closely at beliefs. It's rare. And like you say, no one forces us to come here. Many thanks for your commitment, and for your patience!
Now....
What do you make of the detailed accounts of the bardo, the ground clear light, and the Mahayana teachings that death is a crucial moment for awakening, that if one can practice in this life to be able to recognize the clear light it brings liberation? And if you miss the chance you then go through a series of other chances to achieve liberation, then onto rebirth in one of the six realms....? I know you do not believe in rebirth, but I find it equally hard to believe that generation after generation of meditators who ascribe "bad karma" to those who lead people astray regarding the Dharma would perpetuate beliefs they themselves come to realize are wrong, and surely they would recognize some grain of falsity in the notion of rebirth as they reach deeper and deeper levels of consciouness. Don't you think a contradiction at least would arise as they investigate the nature of mind. But that is an assumption, I can't deny it. I just don't think I can say that mind and things that are "out there" (outside of my mind) are completely separate. Investigating the nature of mind, seems like we are also dabbling in the nature of reality as well.

Is there really no where in the Sutras where the Buddha mentions rebirth? You have sparked my curiosity about this. I do not know the sutras beyond the Heart Sutra, Vajra Cutter, and other more well-known ones, and it sounds to me that you are extremely well-versed. Can you recommend a good place on the web for quality English translations of the sutras? Or quality translations in print?

Regards,
Christian

Jayarava said...

Hi Christian,

I have read very generally about the Mahāyāna, but I don't know it in detail - you notice that I seldom comment on it. When my Sanskrit was fresh and still workable I read the Heart Sūtra and bits of longer Prajñāpāramitā texts, and some of the Sarvatathāgata Tattvasaṃgraha - mainly for insights into the Arapacana Alphabet which is a little sideline of mine.

Surely when you speak of "the bardo" you refer not to Mahāyāna but to Tibetan teachings? Bardo is not a Sanskrit term, it is Tibetan. As I understand it, the idea of the bardo is not found in any Indian Mahāyāna text. I have no idea what "the ground clear light" means, or what it might mean that the clear light brings liberation.

There are certainly Pāli stories where someone is said to gain liberation at the moment of death (The case of Channa who commits suicide for instance) but apart the Tibetans I understand that most Buddhists (and certainly Pāli texts) see rebirth as instantaneous. After the moment of death comes the moment of rebirth with no interval.

The "generation after generation" argument is problematic, because generation after generation of Buddhists in different cultural settings have come to profoundly different conclusions about the nature of mind/reality and all that, and about afterlife. This is why I can't understand the vocabulary you are using. Do you see? The contradictions are staring us in the face!

I think one needs to be very cautious about mind being "in here" and reality being "out there". I try to avoid talking about reality at all. What we need to understand is not the nature of mind, or reality, but of experience. And, as I have been labouring away to say for years now, experience is a construct (saṃskāra) which depends on a sense object, a sense faculty and sense consciousness: when the three coincide there is contact (sparśa) and where there is contact there is sensation (vedanā). Vedanā is experience, or precisely it is the announcement (vedanā) that we are experiencing something. "Reality" in the sense of objects, and "mind" in the sense of vijñāna that contributes to contact, do play a part in this process. But it appears to me to be a mistake to focus on one or other element of this triad of object, faculty and consciousness and to reify it. My impression of Tibetan Buddhism is that "mind" is given a distinctly eternalist spin because they accept the teachings on Buddha Nature which are nothing by ātman repackaged. Paul Williams's book on the Mahāyāna notes that some Mahāyāna sūtras go as far as admiting that tathāgatgarbha is ātman. QED

This is not to say that some weird shit does not go on in deep meditation. Or that some of the people who choose to express themselves in traditional terms do not have understanding that I do not. Most probably there are any number of people who have experienced something like liberation, and are struggling to express it. But Buddhists are often locked into forms of discourse that are anachronistic or philosophically problematic. The mystic tends to express their experience in the terms of the culture around them. Theravāda meditators express themselves in Theravāda terms, Gelugpa's in Gelug terms, and we can extend it to say that Advaita Vedantakas express themselves in Advaita terms etc. Which is not to invalidate the experience, or to over-emphasise the similarities and make all the experiences the same. No. But as a Buddhist I'm interested in making a coherent and rational discourse for talking about what we experience, one that honours the tradition as much as possible (I draw mainly on Pāli texts) and yet one which also honours my years of education in, and my love for, the sciences. A meeting of the European Enlightenment and the Buddhist Enlightenment.

cont...

Jayarava said...

...cont

Did I say that there are no sutras where the Buddha mentions rebirth? It's not something I believe, and if I've given that impression then that is a problem and I should rewrite that part of my essay. Could you point out the offending passage?

The translations put out by Wisdom Publications are generally fairly good, and have notes explaining some of the problems and complexities. Recently Bhikkhu Bodhi did an anthology of Pāli texts for Wisdom which is good. Rupert Gethin's anthology "Sayings of the Buddha" is also good. As for the web, one must always be cautious. The most prominent translator is Bhikkhu Thanissaro of accesstoinsight.com. He can be highly idiosyncratic and some of his choices are confusing (dhamma = stress; papañca = objectification). His use of contemporary idiom is a bit patchy. However he usually catches the drift of the text, and sometimes if you're stuck reading translations gives you a balance to the more formal work of Bodhi. I no longer believe that it is sufficient to read a text in translation in order to really understand it, but using two, or preferably more, translations can help to mitigate some of the problems.

For Mahāyāna Suttras... everyone should at least read Jan Nattier's book A Few Good Men. I wrote about one of her observations on Mahāyāna texts more generally here. BTW If you like the Heart Sutra have you read this?

Cheers
Jayarava

Swanditch said...

Regarding the question of whether the interval appears in the Canon, here are some citations showing that at the very least the interval is not unequivocally rejected:

SN 44.9 - "Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

SN 12.64 - "There are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born."

Metta Sutta - "Whatever living beings there may be...those who are born as well as those yet to be born..."

MN 38 - The gandhabba can be interpreted as a being in the interval - the "being to be born".

DN 33 - The four ways of entering the womb say that one can be conscious before birth. Also in DN 28.

AN 7:52 - Among the possible destinies are some that suggest liberation is attainable between birth and death.

Furthermore this paper [ http://tinyurl.com/7n89jbf ]says that early, i.e. pre-Mahayana, schools disagreed on the existence of the interval, and that both sides quoted suttas in support of their positions. The terms in dispute include antarābhava, antarāparinibbāyī and sambhavesi.

I am offering this information not in support of any dogmatic position but merely to show that the suttas are not entirely clear on the matter of the interval, and that the concept is not a Tibetan invention.

Jayarava said...

Hi Swanditch

Is it dejavu of have we been through this before? Of the citations I think only SN 44.9 supports the idea. The others seem pretty doubtful to me. The metta sutta reference for instance is not relevant at all - it just refers to beings who will be born in the future.

I would place Wayman amongst the scholars that I trust least. Most of the chapter is not online, and I'd want to check it before commenting further. It may well be that the Tibetans got the idea from Indian Buddhism, which would suggest that other countries would have as well. What is the view from China or Japan? Never having looked I have no idea whether they have a view one way or another.

The apparent fact that even early Buddhists cannot agree on the intermediate state is quite telling isn't it. Whoever invented it could not convince all of the others. The most relevant fact from that chapter (as far as it can be read online) would seem to be that each group take their stand not on experience, but on *suttas*. Which is to say by the time of the controversy over rebirth and the intermediate state they have no basis in experience, and have become merely abstract metaphysical propositions.

Since the debate starts as early as we have records for intra-Buddhist debates we might presume that there was never uniformity in the Buddhist community - which is something to look into.

Cheers
Jayarava

Swanditch said...

I did mention the subject before but failed to provide the references. I agree completely that the issue is both dubious and non-experiential. Personally it doesn't interest me at all. I only want to establish that the concept of the interval is not alien to the suttas.

Ted Meissner said...

Thank you again, Jayarava, for a very well thought out and written rave on this challenging topic, and your compassionate and insightful responses to the comments.

Soe am i said...

Dear jayarava,

this is the first time i am reading your posts. I just wanted to say that it was very thought provoking and also a relief hear it from another about the uncertainties about rebirth. I've also wondered if there is not other explanations to past life memories. Am grateful for the time and effort you put into your post.

kattannu homi

Soe am i said...

Oh i also wanted to mention, that in most east asian regions, they accept the concept that the spirit or soul tends to stay without a body for up to 49 days, in antarābhava before rebirth and it seems to have been inluenced originally by some indian schools of buddhism.

kattannu homi

Greg said...

I enjoyed reading this carefully considered piece. Some thoughts in response:

1) Your case against the likelihood of rebirth is reasonable, in my view. I myself am for the most part agnostic on the subject, leaning at times one way and then another. Certainly we must acknowledge that we have reason to be biased in favor of the possibility of rebirth for the reasons you outline. That bias granted, however, I nonetheless think it also at least plausible that rebirth is operative in such a way that the nature of the continuity between lifetimes is ineffable. This possibility fails Hume’s test, certainly, but cannot be entirely ruled out on that basis.

2) Your "hermeneutic of experience" is worthwhile. Nonetheless, I think your views are in fact fairly characterized as annihilationist in the traditional Buddhist sense. That need not be a problem, or be seen in pejorative terms. But I do not find it convincing when you say that the issue of rebirth can simply be sidestepped as not salient to the question of how to live. The question of whether we believe there is this life only or many will inevitably inform the question of how to live. One simply cannot remove rebirth from the equation without also consciously undertaking a radical revision of the raison d'être of Buddhism. The problem is no longer how to end the suffering of cyclic existence—easy, death will take care of that for you—and is now entirely related to question of how we can best utilize our present lives and to what ends.

I’m not sure one can define a Buddhist orthopraxy any more easily than one can define orthodoxy. But why bother? Why not simply propagate certain practices on the basis of their own efficacy in relation to a given set of stated priorities, without any sense of a need to validate them in reference to Buddhism at all? It seems like for your purposes it is just a counterproductive distraction.

3) I could not agree more that a Buddhism that is not in honest and rigorous dialogue with the latest developments in Western philosophy and neuroscience is not going to be viable. Unfortunately, one can’t avoid the reality that it takes quite a lot to get up to speed on the scope and context of the Buddhist tradition(s). But in the last ten years reliable information about Buddhist traditions has become accessible enough that such a dialogue is a lot more possible and potentially fruitful.

Jayarava said...

Hi Greg,

Yes, sure we cannot rule out rebirth, but neither can we rule out the Christian Heaven, or the Egyptian dwelling with Osiris etc. etc. Nor can we completely rule out the tooth-fairy. And we have no objective criteria to choose from amongst the various afterlives despite the fact that they are all mutually exclusive! Why rebirth?

I will admit that if you accept the traditional view on rebirth then my view on rebirth is annihilationist. If you base your argument about what constitutes right-view on the Kaccānagotta Sutta then my view is not annihilationist, it is precisely the middle way. I take my stand on the Kaccānagotta Sutta, and therefore reject the label 'annihilationist' as inaccurate and not particularly relevant.

The question of rebirth is only relevant if you think it is a genuine possibility - you say that you find my case against the likelihood "reasonable". My reasonable case has implications - some of which are hard for Buddhists to swallow. In case you haven't noticed I do propose a "radical revision of the raison d'être of Buddhism." The cycle of suffering happens in the moment. Death is not the end until you die. In the meantime you are alive and trying to live well. How we live is the question. Even the Buddha counselled against living for the purpose of rebirth! Once you strip away all the supernatural stuff you're left with a way to live well. It sounds prosaic, but it is actually profound and difficult. Not many people manage it, but I know a few who do, and consider them my teachers.

To some extent I agree that Buddhism is what Buddhists do, and that we can usefully propagate practices. But people like me will always want an over-view before setting off on the journey. There is a rationale to the practices and I'm interested in articulating that rationale, and since I am also by temperament a systematiser I enjoy giving that rationale a structure. As a gardener I'm not afraid to weed and prune because I know the results are positive.

I don't follow your last point. I've been a practising Buddhist for 18 years and never felt I lacked reliable information. I'm not that interested in a dialogue between Buddhists and Scientists along the lines of the dialogue between Christians and Scientists. I'm interested in a true synthesis. Which I am groping towards.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards
Jayarava

Greg said...

>>> Yes, sure we cannot rule out rebirth, but neither can we rule out the Christian Heaven, or the Egyptian dwelling with Osiris etc. etc. Nor can we completely rule out the tooth-fairy. And we have no objective criteria to choose from amongst the various afterlives despite the fact that they are all mutually exclusive! Why rebirth?

Because as far as it is possible to ascertain, the founder and all of the authorities of the tradition to which you claim adherence assert rebirth. The natural question in response is, why assume an identity that doesn’t actually reflect your outlook? If you are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on a crucial point that cannot be conclusively established in their disfavor, why assume their mantle at all? What purpose does it serve? Why not take an unapologetic à la carte approach to the Buddhist tradition and incorporate it into something new that doesn’t require endless disambiguation? It seems to me that would better serve your purposes.

>>>>I will admit that if you accept the traditional view on rebirth then my view on rebirth is annihilationist. If you base your argument about what constitutes right-view on the Kaccānagotta Sutta then my view is not annihilationist, it is precisely the middle way. I take my stand on the Kaccānagotta Sutta, and therefore reject the label 'annihilationist' as inaccurate and not particularly relevant.

Why would we base an argument on an extremely pithy sutra taken without any context? One can read all sorts of things into it.

>>>The question of rebirth is only relevant if you think it is a genuine possibility - you say that you find my case against the likelihood "reasonable". My reasonable case has implications - some of which are hard for Buddhists to swallow. In case you haven't noticed I do propose a "radical revision of the raison d'être of Buddhism.” . . . How we live is the question. Even the Buddha counselled against living for the purpose of rebirth!

I did not notice. I confess to having read only this article, wherein I don’t see any articulation of a new raison d'être, and not any of the rest of your oeuvre. However, I enjoyed it and intent to read on.

I think your rationale for your disbelief in rebirth is reasonable, but I don’t think it is a conclusive case, nor do I think it precludes rebirth as a genuine possibility. Certainly the Buddha counseled against living for the purpose of rebirth. He counseled in favor of living for the purpose of realizing a nirvana which allows one to transcend the suffering inherent in a purportedly endless series of rebirths. If one simply wants to live well in this present life, however one chooses to define that for oneself, that is a quite a different purpose, a purpose to which one can reasonably expect to apply different means.

As far as my last point goes, I am interested in a synthesis as well, rather than the dialogue you describe. What I meant was, I think in the past ten years with the expansion of the internet and also an efflorescence of quality scholarship on Buddhism, it is easier than it once was for someone entirely new to the subject to bring herself up to speed, and it’s also much easier to really drill down until the fine details of any given philosophical, philological, or historical issue. My sense is that a western philosopher or neuroscientist interested in, say, Buddhist views of the mind, will have a much easier time than he would once have had sorting out the various traditions and their context, evolution, points of controversy, and so forth. And that can only be fruitful.

Cheers,
Greg

Christian said...

Jayarava,

Yes, you are correct. You did not say that rebirth is not mentioned in the sutras... I think I still had your February essay on karma still fresh on my mind, and the notion that karma was brought to the Buddha and not independently realized by him (my spin, not your exact words). So my apologies for that misperception of what you said.
Yes, the Tibetan explanation of the bardo is very elaborate. I agree in part with you when you say, "My impression of Tibetan Buddhism is that 'mind' is given a distinctly eternalist spin because they accept the teachings on Buddha Nature which are nothing but atman repackaged." It is certainly deemed eternal until you put a stop to it. And they most definitely subscribe to buddha nature; it is a central part of the teachings on altruistic motivation, bodhicitta, which is said to be the primary reason for practicing Mahayana buddhism, or "smart selfishness" as the Dalai Lama calls it, sense really you are helping yourself as much as you are helping others (generating good karma). But, like I say, I think it is eternal (or endless) until each being reaches a state of enlightenment.
I understand that the following excerpt begs the question of belief in rebirth and doesn’t prove anything, but I find it an interesting explanation of the continuance of mind, given by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche in a teaching of his from year 2000 in Hartford, Connecticut, and I’m interested in your take:

"Some people have the idea that since the mind or the aggregates of a given life don't really persist in the next life, then the experiencer of my reincarnation is not really me. After all there is no self, so therefore I don't really need to worry about what's going to happen in my next life because it's not me that's going to experience it. It's somebody else; it's their problem. However, this is actually not true. What experiences what you are experiencing right now is your mind. It is that mind that experienced whatever you experienced in the past, earlier in this life and in previous lives, and it is that mind that will experience whatever you experience in the future, later in this life and in future lives. It is true that that mind has no inherent existence. It is true that you can say that at any given moment that the mind is a different mind than the mind of a previous moment, but that is equally true within one life; it is not only true from life to life. So therefore if you say that it is not you that experienced a previous life, then you must also admit that it is not you that experienced whatever you experienced last year. But common sense tells us it is you. You did experience it last year. And if you say that it's not you that is going to experience your next life then by the same argument it is not you that is going to experience whatever you experience next year. But common sense would tell us it is you. You may be able to say on some level they are different minds but certainly it is a consistent continuity, and we are certainly subject to the results of our actions, within one life and therefore from life to life as well."

Thanks for the recommendations for A Few Good Men and the online translations of the sutras.

Christian

Jayarava said...

Hi Greg,

I think we have very different views of what Buddhism is, and what a Buddhist is.

My view is that Buddhism is primarily a system of methods and a Buddhist is someone with a commitment to apply those methods. What I believe as I approach those methods is secondary. And indeed if it were not then all the major innovations would have to be scrapped.

I think, Greg, that you are taking my statements out of context. I have written a long commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta in which I cite dozens of suttas. I am intimately aware of the context in which the text exists and I have shown how it fits into that context. I also cited a dozen other blog posts which build up to the conclusions that I spell out.

I have not ruled out rebirth as a possibility, and I have gone to some trouble to spell out some criteria that I would find persuasive. I find it so unlikely that I think it is better to proceed as if it is not the case - but then I spelt this out in the essay and in previous essays.

I see no value at present in a synthesis with Western Philosophy, or for that matter with Buddhist philosophy. I do see value in bypassing philosophy and creating a synthesis with science. Because in my view what you and I believe is not very relevant as long as we pursue the system of practice.

Cheers
Jayarava

Jayarava said...

Hi Christian,

Phew.

Are you sure that one can put a stop to tathāgatagarbha? If one examines the Tathāgatagaarbha Sūtra (in Buddhism in Practice, 1995, p.92ff.) one finds repeated suggestions that it cannot be destroyed or altered in any way.

It's very interesting to see a Tibetan Lama enunciating what is effectively a view of the Upanisadic ātman as a Buddhist view. What he says is similar to what one finds in, for example, the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. It is an eternalist view, but then karma doesn't really work as a moral theory in a rebirth worldview without becoming eternalist. As he correctly points out: if there is no connection between lives then it's not much of a moral motivation. It is apparently better to be a bit eternalist than to ditch a faulty moral theory or worldview altogether.

What he is arguing is that if there is *any* continuity (and we do have a sense of continuity) then it *must* cross the barrier of death. But this is an unjustified logical leap. Unjustified in the sense that it doesn't follow, and in the sense that he does justify it, he just states it as an axiom. The explanation relies on the notion that there is continuity so is really just a restatement of an axiomatic belief rather than a logical argument. It takes no cognizance of modern views of the mind/brain complex.

I should add that I'm sure that if one could really buy into such a worldview then, one would have a sense of karma overseeing all of one's actions, and I imagine that one would be motivated to be moral.

Equally I am sure that despite having irrational traditional views Karthar is fully able to exemplify Buddhist values: I'm sure he is kind, and generous, and wise.

I don't think a modern world-view is necessary to achieve higher states of mind, or to live a good life. Unfortunately I happen to have a modern world-view, despite my hick background, and I value it too much to want to submerge it in a pre-modern world view. So I'm stuck looking for a synthesis.

As I said earlier today to Greg, I think it is how you live, how you practice that is important, not what you believe. Partly because I've noticed that belief is seldom strongly correlated to exemplifying values. Some believers are good and some evil, and most hover in the middle ground. The people I admire seem to be people who have consistently *practised* Buddhism for decades; whereas often I find the people with the strongest beliefs seem to fail to exemplify the values they espouse.

BTW I recently rediscovered Piya Tan's Dharmafarers website of translations and commentaries. He puts in a lot of work to his commentaries and they are often extremely helpful in understanding the background and the concepts in each text. So that's another good source for you. He's more traditional than I am though.

Regards
Jayarava

Anonymous said...

Jayarava,

Again, your points are well taken; and I believe somewhere in that same teaching KKR does say something to the effect of "if you do not believe in rebirth then none of this makes sense".
So yes, there are most definitely leaps of logic, but I'm afraid I will always feel there is going to be a place where we have to make a leap of faith if we follow any religion. At some point.

What is enlightenment if not a stop to the endless round of rebirth? That's what I meant by "putting a stop to it".

Regards,
Christian

Jayarava said...

Hi Christian,

What is enlightenment?

Bodhi - waking up.
Nibbāṇa - blowing out the flames of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Nippapañca - the stilling of metaphysical speculation.
Santaṃ - peaceful.
Abyāpajjhaṃ - trouble-free. Anālayo - not clinging.
Parisuddha - completely purified. Uppekha - equanimity.
Anāsava - without taints.

I could go on... and on...

Rebirth was certainly present in the canon, but the most important image was always fire: see the Fire Sermon. And from this we get the most important term for the goal: nibbāṇa; Sanskrit nirvāṇa - blown (vāṇa) out (nir-). This metaphors shows that rāga/lobha, dosa, and moha (passion/greed, aversion, delusion) are like fires that we feed with our attachments and aversions, and we put out by denying them fuel. (More on this theme).

Ciao
Jayarava

Scott said...

Hi Jayarava,

It sounds like you are more of a scientist than a Buddhist. It sounds like you have subordinated your approach to understand a Buddhist doctrine to Western science. So, to be honest, if that is the case, this should not be considered a Buddhist piece. It would then be a scientist analyzing a Buddhist doctrine, not a Buddhist analyzing a Buddhist doctrine
Best regards,
Scott
Dhammamitra
USA

Mark Tatz said...

Picking up on the questions raised by Gambhiradaka above--He is correct to question how Chinese and Japanese schools dealt with the doctrine of karma and rebirth. The countries of Sri Lanka, Southeast Asia and Tibet adopted Buddhism hook, line and sinker as a part of Indian civilization, down to the creation of alphabets for writing. Japan has a similar debt to China, and Mongolia to Tibet. The already complex and advanced civilization of China is the appropriate historical model for the adaptation of Buddhism to the West.

Gambhiradaka's intuition is correct--those Sino-Japanese schools can, for the most part, stand on their own without reference to karma and rebirth. The Chinese had a problem with rebirth, because it contradicted filial piety and the veneration of ancestors. For them it was hard to stomach the idea that one might, in the past, have been a dog or a flea as well as a human being. Western secularists such as Jayarava have a similar problem in superimposing rebirth upon scientific materialism.

Jayarava assumes that consciousness is necessarily a product of brain activity. Epigenetics calls this into question. His knowledge of biology is high-school level and the equivalent to Newtonian physics.

Simple translations of Sanskrit terms will not cut it either. "Habit" does not adequately render the implications of vaasanaa. There is plenty of discussion of the detailed particulars of the transfer of consciousness. But if one rejects Abhidharma and commentatorial literature generally, one will not find it.

windwheel said...

I've only recently found this blog.
I think this post is exciting. One way forward might be for us Britishers to resurrect our own ancient notion of 'tuirgen'- investigative birth seeking- to get a better handle on ancient Indian thought.
Western Academic approaches to Buddhism are very funny and should certainly be relished as such. Vide http://socioproctology.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/nagarjunas-madras-curry.html
but Western practice of Buddhism- barring some West Coast nuttiness- is pretty worthwhile.
Evolutionary theory, interestingly, can reverse supervenience w.r.t phenonmenology & intentionality such that the kergymatic kernel of Lord Buddha is saved. Vide http://socioproctology.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/pratyekas-supervene-on-boddhisatvas.html.

the doctine of re-birth was used in Ancient India as a type of Judicial 'substantive due process' activism- i.e. a just-so story was told about how some Rishi changed the law of causation so that we could get 'harmonious construction'.
These just-so stories were merely Schelling type focal points- i.e. solutions to a coordination problem- and the discrete math tradition they arose from is now of renewed interest so we needn't look at Buddhism through Laplacian lenses.

windwheel said...

I may add that Umaswati brings Jainism into line with Buddhism and Vedanta- i.e. they become 'observationally indistinguishable'- by means of a mathematical argument.
Vide- http://socioproctology.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/umaswati-entropy.html

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